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1 freetoken  Sun, Sep 25, 2011 12:08:19am

PILTDOWN MAN!!

2 docproto48  Sun, Sep 25, 2011 4:54:43am

Republican presidential candidate Rick Perry even accuses climate scientists of lying for money.

Then I will say oil companies are lying for money..............SO THERE!

3 dragonfire1981  Sun, Sep 25, 2011 6:25:19am

That last line is probably the truth. A lot of deniers follow the logic: "well God is in control of everything so what does it matter what I do?"

4 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Sep 25, 2011 7:14:45am

The reason people are denying global warming is because it is threatening their identities.

People whose identity rotates pretty much solely around the idea that they are Americans are going to react badly to any change in America. Or more specifically their idea of America.

That America is somewhere in the increasingly distant past. A time when America was 'the indispensable nation'. A time when large, gas guzzling cars was a symbol. A time when factories were big and dirty. A time when pollution was a necessary part of America.

So reducing pollution of all types will require changing these things. Essentially America must change.

This is not something many people can accept. Changing America will threaten America's power, in their minds. By extension these changes threaten them, their idea of who and what they are.

So they won't accept it. Like most people, they don't react well to threats.

5 lostlakehiker  Sun, Sep 25, 2011 1:50:03pm

re: #4 Romantic Heretic

The reason people are denying global warming is because it is threatening their identities.

People whose identity rotates pretty much solely around the idea that they are Americans are going to react badly to any change in America. Or more specifically their idea of America.

That America is somewhere in the increasingly distant past. A time when America was 'the indispensable nation'. A time when large, gas guzzling cars was a symbol. A time when factories were big and dirty. A time when pollution was a necessary part of America.

So reducing pollution of all types will require changing these things. Essentially America must change.

This is not something many people can accept. Changing America will threaten America's power, in their minds. By extension these changes threaten them, their idea of who and what they are.

So they won't accept it. Like most people, they don't react well to threats.

That's not exactly it. There's a general human tendency to believe that things can't really be that bad. Jews stayed in Germany, believing that things couldn't really be that bad. They were worse. Germans stayed in East Prussia, awaiting the Red Army, believing that things couldn't really be that bad. They were just as bad as German propaganda had claimed---perhaps the only time in the war that the propaganda had been truthful.

People stayed in Tower #2 after Tower #1 had been hit on 9-11. Some, in tower 1 but below the fire, failed to evacuate. Things couldn't really be that bad, could they?

Warnings that a housing bubble was building were ignored in the U.S. for a decade and more. Things couldn't be that bad, right? Global warming is a perfect fit for the denial instinct. The threat is not immediately visible. No big teeth, no horrible stink, no thunderous noise, no scarlet blood spouting. What's to worry?

Now add in the fact that some of the time, talk of global warming is a cover story for ordinary, venial motives. Solyndra got money in the name of green, in the name of saving the planet. But nothing of the sort was on offer. The information proving that Solyndra was not viable was available and in the hands of the administration. But what the administration wanted was not so much to save the planet as to get a good photo op. That, they got.

What can be more natural, for those who do not want to believe and have been stung before by alarmist scares such as power lines cause leukemia or Alar poisons apples, than to proceed from the singular to the general and conclude that all talk of global warming is self serving piffle? This audience hasn't a prayer of getting to the bottom of the science. It's too busy earning a living to spare real, sustained thought and attention to the matter.

The barrage of self serving lies from the denialist side is not recognized as such. Affinity scams work that way. People fall readily into the trap of believing those who sport badges of same-group-membership.

But as the man says, sooner or later it's going to get so bad that there's no longer any way to deny that it's happening. What there is, sadly, is a way to put it down to "natural" effects. Grasping at cosmic ray straws, for example.

The cure, I would imagine, will have to be a Nixon to China play. Somebody with good, solid, Goldwater pure conservative chops is going to have to declare that the cosmic-rays-did-it Emperor has no clothes. And they're going to have to get some respect from the other side of the aisle---none of this shooting the man down because he took the wrong position on this, that, or the other issue that has nothing to do with the case at hand.

One good bet for that would be a former governor of a mountain west state, and the time, the occasion of a monumentally disastrous fire in Rocky Mountain National Park. It's coming, see. Beetle infestations have killed a good quarter of the trees.

6 dragonfire1981  Sun, Sep 25, 2011 2:12:20pm

re: #5 lostlakehiker

That's not exactly it. There's a general human tendency to believe that things can't really be that bad. Jews stayed in Germany, believing that things couldn't really be that bad. They were worse. Germans stayed in East Prussia, awaiting the Red Army, believing that things couldn't really be that bad. They were just as bad as German propaganda had claimed---perhaps the only time in the war that the propaganda had been truthful.

People stayed in Tower #2 after Tower #1 had been hit on 9-11. Some, in tower 1 but below the fire, failed to evacuate. Things couldn't really be that bad, could they?

Warnings that a housing bubble was building were ignored in the U.S. for a decade and more. Things couldn't be that bad, right? Global warming is a perfect fit for the denial instinct. The threat is not immediately visible. No big teeth, no horrible stink, no thunderous noise, no scarlet blood spouting. What's to worry?

Now add in the fact that some of the time, talk of global warming is a cover story for ordinary, venial motives. Solyndra got money in the name of green, in the name of saving the planet. But nothing of the sort was on offer. The information proving that Solyndra was not viable was available and in the hands of the administration. But what the administration wanted was not so much to save the planet as to get a good photo op. That, they got.

What can be more natural, for those who do not want to believe and have been stung before by alarmist scares such as power lines cause leukemia or Alar poisons apples, than to proceed from the singular to the general and conclude that all talk of global warming is self serving piffle? This audience hasn't a prayer of getting to the bottom of the science. It's too busy earning a living to spare real, sustained thought and attention to the matter.

The barrage of self serving lies from the denialist side is not recognized as such. Affinity scams work that way. People fall readily into the trap of believing those who sport badges of same-group-membership.

But as the man says, sooner or later it's going to get so bad that there's no longer any way to deny that it's happening. What there is, sadly, is a way to put it down to "natural" effects. Grasping at cosmic ray straws, for example.

The cure, I would imagine, will have to be a Nixon to China play. Somebody with good, solid, Goldwater pure conservative chops is going to have to declare that the cosmic-rays-did-it Emperor has no clothes. And they're going to have to get some respect from the other side of the aisle---none of this shooting the man down because he took the wrong position on this, that, or the other issue that has nothing to do with the case at hand.

One good bet for that would be a former governor of a mountain west state, and the time, the occasion of a monumentally disastrous fire in Rocky Mountain National Park. It's coming, see. Beetle infestations have killed a good quarter of the trees.

Excellent comment but one of the key things from where I sit is not only whether or not global warming is occurring but what may be causing it. If a denier says God is causing the warming of the earth and there's nothing we can do about it, is that not just as damaging as someone who says outright it isn't happening?

I think part of the problem with regards to global warming is overconfidence on the part of the human race. We have deluded ourselves into thinking we have this planet largely under control (despite Hurricane Katrina, Hurricane Irene and the Japanese Tsunami showing us otherwise) and that inevitably we'll develop scientific/technological advances that will make global warming a non issue.


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